SPEAKER_01: 0:00

So I podcast with my thousand.

SPEAKER_04: 0:33

Living with these disabilities for over 20 years, we have developed helpful hints and life lessons that we would like to share with you that has made our life easier and possible in some cases. We consider ourselves disability advocates and intend to educate ourselves and you about other disabilities and issues, and also talk about things we find interesting and frequently encounter when we're out and about. Hey, this is the month of May. And what are we going to talk about?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10

Something about may I? Oh, may I talk about service dogs?

SPEAKER_04: 1:17

Yes. That's what we're talking about, service dogs. So there it is a very complicated um subject because there's all kinds of things and um different um therapy dogs, uh emotional support dogs, all kinds of classifications. And it was way too complicated for us to get to to learn all the ins and outs and all that stuff. So we went to experts.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42

Well, we tried to uh get experts to comp compare different states.

SPEAKER_04: 1:49

Right. We travel in two different states, well, two or three, uh, but mainly two. Um Missouri, which is where we're at, and um Tennessee, which is where my brother is at, and m Kevin's parents are at. And so we tend to travel there quite frequent so frequently along with our dogs. So we wanted to get the clarification of what make sure that we stay in um legal.

SPEAKER_01: 2:15

Now, as a disclaimer, it's important that you check your state laws to find out if they've added any requirements we're not talking about because there are 50 states and all states have separate clarific uh clarifications on them.

SPEAKER_04: 2:36

But it they all follow the ADA rules, right?

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

That means there are 47 states out there that we're not talking about that could have further legislated legislated laws that apply.

SPEAKER_04: 2:52

So But who are we who are we talking uh to? We're talking to Stacy. Um she is an owner of Bush's Pet Store and um uh kenneling and also a doggy uh daycare um here in our town. She's a friend of mine, and she was nice enough to get out to be on the podcast. And then our mot my mother-in-law, Ruth Henry, she um knew of an expert, Christy, from Thunderhawk Canine in Tennessee, and she actually has taken some of her courses and said she's amazing as an instructor. Now, Stacy does not train service dogs, she's just at the sees the other end of it where the service dogs and the therapy dogs and the emotional support dogs come into her place. Um and then but Christy would be the expert as far as uh service training in t the Tennessee area. Now let me read to you so we're not we don't have any um confusion what in a what the ADA says about service dogs.

SPEAKER_01: 3:58

And uh warning out of time, the ADA is kind of uh like vague about some of the stuff and not least specific about other stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 4:09

Okay, according to the ADA, the Americans with Disability Act, a service animal is defined as a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability. The ADA specifies that only dogs are recognized as service animals under Titles II, III, and of the Act. This means that while other animals can provide support, they are not considered service animals under the ADA guidelines. Service animals are trained to specifically perform tasks directly related to the person's disability, such as guiding people with who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, and pulling a wheelchair or performing other duties. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the individual's disability. It's important to note that emotional support animals, therapy animals, and comfort animals or comp companion animals are not considered service animals under ADA because they have not been trained to perform a specific task or job. If you need more details, um please visit the ADA official website website. Kevin will have that below in the show notes. Now access of rights. No access rights. Service dogs are legally allowed to accomp a company accompany their handlers in most public places, including restaurants, shops, and hotels. This is to ensure that the individual with the disability can participate in everyday activities. Uh differences for from the emotional support animal. It's important to note that service animals are not the same as emotional support animals. Service dogs are trained to perform specific tasks where an emotional support animal is not. So let's get on with all the the experts telling us where exactly we stand.

SPEAKER_01: 6:11

Okay, that sounds like a great idea. First up.

SPEAKER_04: 6:16

Hey, stay tuned for the end of the podcast for a chance at our 2024 podcast drawing. All right. Now we'll hear from uh Christy from Thunderhawk K9 in uh Tennessee. Um so this is Palmy and Kevin, and we have a special guest, Christy from Thunderhawk K9. Hey Christy, how are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you? Doing fine. Hey, we've contacted you today because we were doing a podcast on um service dogs and other the three other um connection uh categories that um uh that would help with a disabled person. So we're talking service dog, we're talking therapy dog, and we're talking emotional smart dog.

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

Awesome. And those, yeah, those are the three major categories. And I think often people confuse uh what roles each of those have defined as. Um yeah, but they're all vital. They just have very, very different properties.

SPEAKER_04: 7:17

So let's start with the service dog, which is the one that involves more of the training. And am I correct that you do uh train service dogs?

SPEAKER_00: 7:24

We do. Um service dogs, like you said, they they're dogs that are task-based trained, meaning they they do specific jobs or tasks for their ownerslash handler to help them mitigate a diagnosed disability. Primarily, we do service dog training with their owners. Um, there are some facilities that will take dogs in, do all the training themselves, and then match them. There's some really, really great reputable organizations. Unfortunately, in our industry right now, it's uh kind of a fad. And so there are a lot of people that are either think they're doing a great job and maybe don't have the whole picture. Um, I think there's also it's it's an area that's become quite taken advantage of. Um, but we do offer it, like I said, in conjunction with their owners so that they can be part of the training process, especially since it's such a long duration.

SPEAKER_04: 8:17

And tell me, what have do you have a recent graduate that you train for specific diagnosis uh diagnosis or or um disability?

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Graduates, I can't think of anybody right off the top of my head. And and that's sort of a hard thing anyway, because all training is an evolving process. Um, and the dogs are always in training every time they are out with their person. But certainly we want to see a metric of they've accomplished this before they're going out into public. I do have a group that I meet with um every week to bi-weekly of four to five service dog handlers that are bringing their dogs up. Um, two members of our group are former veterans, um, one from Vietnam and then one from more recently. And their dogs are in training for uh PTSD type stuff, as well as um indicated retrieve, mobility assistance, things like that. Uh, we have one who right now I'm working with his mom. Um, the young child has a pretty significant disability that helps with mobility. So um, as well as some attention deficit issues and things like that. Um, I have another woman in the group. She's on her second dog. She's training with us, and she has some significant anxiety disorders that uh present themselves in some self-destruction, not to the point of mutival mutilation, but she'll like scratch lesions on herself and things like that. So her dog has some interrupted behaviors that have been trained. Um, so those are just some examples.

SPEAKER_04: 9:50

So training is ongoing then continually throughout the process. Yep, yep. And like I'm sorry, like like blind um C and I dogs where I think they graduate and then they go to the owner type of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 10:02

Is that where so they're doing, but they it is, and but they still have trainers in the area where they go, or if they're local to the leader dog schools, they still meet for maintenance stuff. Um because dogs, again, they're they're always learning and they're always going to do what benefits them, to be honest. And so if they get into their work and through the course of their work, they end up performing a behavior that maybe isn't part of the picture that we want to see, but that behavior is inadvertently rewarded. Uh, maybe they're just having a bad day and they have an ear infection, you know, and they saw another dog and they were just a little more grumbly. But when they did that, the other dog backed away or alerted to them. Now that dog learned in that one moment that being a little bit grumbly can affect um affect their environment. And so then we need to go back and recondition that. You don't get to be grumbly and be a service dog. So um, now again, the hardest thing, hands down, with service dog work is the the individual genetic temperament of the dog. You just can't train out genetics. So it's a very, very, very small fraction of the canine population that is truly appropriate to service dog work. And so maybe Grumbly wasn't the best idea. A service dog really should never be reactive to their environment, but I mean, but they're dogs too.

SPEAKER_04: 11:25

They they go back to their basics. To some degree. That that leads me to a question on the cost. Um, I we've heard it's quite, quite expensive. There's lots of grants out there in order for people to be able to afford this. Uh, I know the veterans uh home our house or veterans affairs here in uh Missouri offers a uh whole course on it um and and financing for it because it's so expensive.

SPEAKER_00: 11:54

It is a continuing evolving process. And yeah, a finished dog, depending on what skill sets they're trained in, could be upwards of$20,000,$25,000, which obviously is quite cost prohibitive for a lot of people. I don't blame them. But part of that is because that temperament is so specific that you're either buying dogs out of a breeding program that has been putting out this specific temperament for decades and decades, or you are taking in a lot of dogs with the hopes that some of them will have that temperament, but you're spending the time raising them, training them, feeding them, interacting with them, and you can't make that judgment call until they're like eight to 18 months. And so then when the dog isn't gonna work out for that, then you're gonna repurpose those dogs into uh hopefully other jobs or pet homes. So it is quite a costly process to get a dog to a finished place. Um, there are all the grants available, and honestly, I I have people that I refer people to to help with that. And they range from, you know, uh definitely helping people that might be economically uh compromised to people that maybe make a little bit too much to refund state or excuse me, to receive state funds. And so there's this gap actually for children. One of my clients is using that. It's a grant where her family makes too much, but not enough to be able to just drop$25,000 on a dog. And so they get upwards of, I think it's$10,000 a year to put towards needs for this child. Um, so there's a lot of things out there um that are available. There's also some people that are starting to look at this area of the industry that we call green dogs. And it's something that's been in law enforcement and military forever. You know, basically it's dogs that have the correct temperament, have been raised up to a certain point. So we know that they are physically healthy and they show like they're gonna be able to do the work, but they're not trained to task yet. So they can then be molded to the individual person. And we're actually starting a puppy raising program along those lines here as well, just so that people have a better crop. There's almost, I think one of the biggest challenges for my clients is that they'll they'll get a puppy, they'll raise it up, they're attached, they're emotionally invested, they put so much into it, and now the dog is 14 months old and clearly not an appropriate candidate. Right. And then what do you do? You know, if you keep it as a pet, that's great, but then your new dog coming into the home has this built-in, you know, competition for affection and everything else, it's a lot harder. Or you have to place that dog start all over, and you still might not know for a year if that dog's gonna work. So I think that's maybe a gap in the industry that people are trying to fill.

SPEAKER_04: 14:45

Heartbreaking, yeah. Yeah, we were in that situation. We have two little dogs, and and Kevin probably could really use a service dog uh for he has a lot of anxiety and and stuff like that. But um, we'd have to get rid of ours, you know, and you're so attached. Like we've had ours for seven, eight years. So, you know, it's it's hard to give up a dog like that.

SPEAKER_00: 15:06

I would say most of my clients that are working with me also have pets in the home. We just really work on developing that individual bond and that independence with their handler, um, independence from the other dogs in the home. There are the the organizations that require you to have no other pets in your home. And I understand that because they're they want to set their animals up for success. Um, but we we work with a lot of people that have other dogs in the home. So it it can be done, especially if the primary purpose of that service dog for you is out in public. Um, so there's not that competition. It's just you and your dog. There's not that competition for interaction and and things like that. When you're in outside the house, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 15:49

Um tell us a little bit about your your uh panel, or is it a kennel, canine kennel?

SPEAKER_00: 15:55

Is it what it's Thunderhawk canine is a an evolving process as well, I should say. Like my background is through clinical behavior out of the veterinary hospital out of a veterinary hospital in Michigan. My degree is uh animal behavior and neurobiology. Um, and I started up in Michigan in well, I graduated in 1999 and was working at the veterinary hospital at that time. I moved to Tennessee in 2008. Um, my then boyfriend, now husband, um, had purchased Thunderhawk Kennels at the time um in 2006. When he purchased it, it had actually been shut down as a business for many years. So he reopened it under Thunderhawk Canine. And when I moved to Tennessee again from Michigan, uh, I had spoken at the Michigan Veterinary Conference. I did in services with veterinarians, you know, I was something of a peer on the behavior side. And that was at the very, very early stages of the practice of clinical behavior or behavior out of a veterinary hospital that was very early in it anyway. So when I moved to Middle Tennessee, I just thought, oh my gosh, nobody's gonna have my skill sets. You know, I'm gonna go to the vets, let them know I'm available, you know, and and I'll be able to just kind of make it here. Um, but I I did that, and maybe I was a little too full of my own bravado. But the the feedback was that I talk way too fast for the South. And uh, you're just a little girl. How are you gonna handle those big dogs, honey? You know, I'm from Michigan too. I'm I'm from Michigan, whereabouts in Michigan? Uh I grew up in Berkeley, which is Southfield Royal Oak, uh a suburb of Detroit. So I was saying everybody knows. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I um I always joke that everybody knows eight mile and I was at 11 mile.

SPEAKER_04: 17:43

Yeah, we lived on eight mile, yeah. Yeah. Originally I'm from northern Michigan and I had that same thing where I talk too fast.

SPEAKER_00: 17:49

I and talk over everybody. Yeah. It it was also, I I think I I I was also involved with some law enforcement up there and stuff like that. And and I just feel it was um just a different place in viewing women's place in the industry. Uh down here. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 18:07

Totally different culture. Yeah. The southern uh south is totally different from the northern states. So yeah, it takes a little bit of getting used to, but we love them now.

SPEAKER_00: 18:16

Absolutely. And and I I think honestly, it was probably in my best interest anyway, to be honest, because then I had to develop my roots in the community instead of just going to the vets and trying to be the local professional. I started a 4-H dog program. Um, we were a part of Bite Free Putnam County. I got involved with the local hospital because they were trying to create a therapy dog program, which we had already created up in Michigan. Um, so I was able to really contribute to the community that I wanted to be giving me business. And then those people went back to the veterinarians, and now things are very cohesive.

SPEAKER_04: 18:48

Um, and you're you now you obviously have more than you can handle.

SPEAKER_00: 18:52

So you're interested all the time. I am running too many directions.

SPEAKER_04: 18:57

Yeah. My mother-in-law just loves your kind the the training that she gets there. That's our connection to you. Um, in so we are curious, is there different uh um requirements in different states? We are talking about Michigan versus Tennessee, but uh service-wise and emotional, or is it just a common? It's very confusing for a lot of people when you first get into it because there's um what's required and what's not required, and you can't literally ask if if the dog is trained properly. So that's correct.

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

That's so my basic overview is that you know, we have those three main designations that you mentioned. We have therapy dogs. Therapy dogs are are somebody's pet who is trained to a high level of degree, and then they've also had their temperament tested to say that this dog genuinely enjoys the interactions with other people. And then when those dogs are working, they are everybody's dog. Um, and they do again go through that evaluation process. They are generally um certified by an organization. We work with a couple different ones, and that organization kind of backs their volunteers, usually with upwards of a$1 million liability policy. And they do not have any legal access rights. You can't take your therapy dog anywhere that pets are not invited unless it's very specifically requested by the administration there. And even then, it's subject to federal law. So, like a restaurant owner couldn't say, Hey, I want to have a therapy dog visit here. Um, you can't do that. There also is this new subsection of therapy dogs. Um, they're commonly called facility dogs. These are dogs that live within the facility or are owned by somebody that works within the facility. So schools therapists, uh, we've trained some for local dentists' office offices. Um, and they do kind of the same thing. They're there to comfort the humans that are there. They are not typically covered by any of these third-party organizations. Um, they are under the liability of that company, um, yeah, or that person, probably both. And we usually recommend that that there's a separate liability policy just for that dog. Um, but even in every case, those dogs are, like I said, they're everybody's dogs. Then there's the emotional support area. Emotional support dogs are covered by the Free Housing Act. That's where all their laws are at, um, or at least a large portion of them. They only have legal access rights for housing and transportation, and it can be state dependent. So more and more municipalities are passing legislation about it, and then they kind of get fought through the Fair Housing Act and it kind of goes back and forth. And a lot of that is because there's so much abuse in that area. Right. Um an emotional support animal requires a medical documentation saying that the human needs this animal in their life. It makes no stipulations on the training of the dog, the type of the dog, anything. It just says the human benefits from having it and therefore should have it in housing and transportation situations. And that's why you can go online and you can speak to a therapist for 15 minutes, and then they can give you that letter that you need to take to your landlord or whatnot. So there's a lot of back and forth on that one. Um, and I just tell people go ahead.

SPEAKER_04: 22:22

That's typically like those things you see online or YouTube or whatever where they offer certification, and that's all it's really doing is tell giving you a you're having an interview with a doctor, psychiatrist, whatever. It's just a not a um thorough background, you know, evaluation or anything. It's just uh not usually, yeah, not usually.

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Now there, I I work with plenty of clients who are in therapy and and they would benefit or do benefit from it, and they do get a letter from their practitioner. Um so there's a lot of truth in that part of the industry, but there's just so much scam. Um, and all you have to do is spend five minutes on a local uh Facebook page, and somebody will say, Hey, how do I keep my dog in my apartment? It's not pet friendly, and my landlord just found out. And there's 27 comments that say, Oh, just go get yourself this. Um to call it a certified emotional support dog. I mean, again, the laws make absolutely no demands nor requirements or anything else for the training on the dog or anything about the dog. So it's it it just that letter just says there is a need by the human. Um and then the little loophole that I suppose landlords have and whatnot is that any dog, no matter what job they are performing, if they create a disturbance, um, if they are not unobtrusive, then they can be asked to be removed unless they are in the act of tasking. So then that brings us to service dogs. Service dogs are, you know, handler specific. Uh, they should be very attentive to their one person. They must complete a task or multiple tasks that help that person with a diagnosed disability mitigate life. Um, it is true that all a business owner or anyone can do is say, is your dog a uh therapy, excuse me, a service dog? And what tasks does your dog provide? They cannot ask for a demonstration of task or anything else. Um, so there is a lot of dishonesty in that aspect of it as well. Right. Um, but from a law standpoint, that is protected by the Americans with Disability Act. There's no certification, registration, anything that the ADA cares about, any of that stuff that you find online, I'm not gonna call it a scam because there are some organizations that are just trying to create a minimum standard so people can say, my dog is past this minimum standard. And if you know, business owners or anybody was aware of that, then they could say, okay, this dog, you know, has a public access or accessibility, you know, certification. The law doesn't care, but it should give owners of businesses and whatnot some information. The problem is that for every legitimate one of those that exists, there's 40 that are not legitimate. So business owners can't weed through to know what's good and what's bad. Yeah, it's a real hard gray area. Um the one subsection of service dog training that is very state dependent is service dogs in training. Um, the ADA does not make any mention of service dogs in training. They offer no rights or anything like that, but states do. So, for instance, in the state of Tennessee, a service dog in training is only granted public access if it is accompanied by an accredited trainer or a trainer from an accredited establishment. And that's because they were gonna put a leader dog school in Nashville. That didn't happen. And so there really isn't an accredited training program in the state of Tennessee. Um, there are other states that grant service dogs and training full legal access rights, which I think is a little bit crazy. Um so that is an area where everybody has to research.

SPEAKER_04: 26:20

Right, right. That should be something they earn eventually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:24

I I feel like, I mean, I can take a puppy and say it's a service dog in training, because it is until it fails out or is you know finished. So you got a good 18 months, apparently.

SPEAKER_04: 26:35

Or do you find that there's do you find that there's a particular breed or um or I guess size that's typical for a service dog?

SPEAKER_00: 26:45

Um I think it depends on the needs of the person, but I I do think that the breeds that have been, again, bred in that direction for decades are where people should really be looking. And that's our Goldens, our labs, and not our field golden, our field labs, much more our benchdogs, our are, you know, calmer, yeah, in general, calmer, more attentive, uh and more trainable, apparently. Yeah. Uh to that task. You know, I a lot of people want to be a little bit different often, and so they'll get these off breeds. And that's not to say that that a Belgian Malinois individual might not make a great service dog, but in general, that is not what the breed was created for for the last you know hundred years. And so trying to take that very intelligent, very active dog and then mold it into something very specific and calm and attentive, um, it can be very hard on the dog.

SPEAKER_04: 27:49

And they tend they tend to um not fail out of the course when you put that much money in it. You want your best best um to choose the best choice to begin with, I assume.

SPEAKER_00: 28:03

I I think so. Um, and what ends up happening is a lot of people, I think, take dogs that are not truly meant for the work and just do it anyway. Um, and so we see that with a lot of the off-breeds. It just I I can't even, you know, for me, like uh a husky is happiest, you know, strapped to a sled and running across Alaska. Not to say that you can't keep them fulfilled in a million different ways. And there are some individuals within the husky breed that make great service dogs, but they are a very, very small percentage. So yeah, if you're gonna go out and get a dog because you want to raise a future service dog, it's always best to set yourself up for the most success possible and go with something a little more traditional.

SPEAKER_04: 28:48

Right, right. Well, thank you. I appreciate your time, Kristen. And um, we will our podcast will come out on th either Wednesday or Thursday, right?

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

It'll come on usually on the time for tough nut cracking editing.

SPEAKER_00: 29:05

Yeah. Okay, awesome. Well, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you guys today. Um, and if you can send me a link to that, I'd love to have it and I'll get it circulated as well. Thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you. You guys have a great day. You too. You too. Bye. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_04: 29:20

Wow, we really learned a lot of stuff there. I think we knew a lot more about service animals than we did before. Okay, so this is Stacy Heiser, and she owns um Bush's pet products here in Cape Girardeau. And we're gonna talk to Stacy today about uh service animals. We're investigating how to get a service animal, what you need to do, and all the details. And uh I've known her in the past with a friend of mine from before when I had the cafe. And um, I'm hoping she will give us some information. Hopefully so. Hi Stacy, how are you?

SPEAKER_03: 29:55

I'm doing great, how are you? Good. You want to introduce yourself a little bit? Sure. Um I'm Stacy. Stacy Bush, everybody knows me as different things. I do, uh, like Palmy said, I own Bush Pet Products, um, which is a holistic pet supply store. It's been open since 2010. Uh I also own Deer Creek Doggy Day Camp, which we opened um in 2015. That's just a daytime daycare for dogs. And um I actually took over my parents' kennel, boarding kennel, in 2019. It's called Bush's Kennel, uh, and we board dogs and cats overnight there. And that's actually been in operation since 1972. So you just have all kinds of sparing. All kinds. Plus, she has a child who's 13, so she's also a mother.

SPEAKER_04: 30:36

Yes. How do you do all that? Barely. Well, what like I said, we were going to talk about service animals, and we kind of talked last night um about we needed some basic information on service animals. Sure. So uh what is the difference between a service animal and an um emotional support animal?

SPEAKER_03: 30:56

Well, there's some pretty vast differences. In fact, I even kind of categorize them in in more like three categories than two, because there are therapy dogs, therapy animals as well. Um those are more like uh the dogs that you see that go into nursing homes and some that you see at schools. They're they're becoming more and more popular in s in classroom settings.

SPEAKER_04: 31:18

Oh, I thought you were saying like um, because I know there's a psych psychiatric type of dog service.

SPEAKER_03: 31:23

Is that and I would probably put that in that same area. Yeah, they might cross over just a hair into the ESA. Um it kind of depends on what kind of training they have. Okay and what the business or organization allows too. Right. You know, um I think therapy animals were super duper popular before COVID because we had a lot of them that would that would uh come in and get new collars for different holidays and things like that because they were going to visit nursing homes and they were going to visit assisted living centers and um and there's several schools in the area that have dogs that spend their days in classrooms with kids that have like anxiety. Oh, okay. You know, so it's more like um those dogs can be petted, they can be hugged, they're just there for comfort. For comfort, yeah, yeah. So that's that's kind of the first category. Um the emotional support animals, um, you know, they're not necessarily trained either. Uh in a lot of cases, it's just the bond that that they provide to their owner. Um ESA animals can travel on planes, they can go into certain establishments that allow ESA. Um not the same as service, though. Not the same as service, no, not at all. They they definitely have not gone through a specialized training program, in my opinion. I'm sure there are training programs out there. In fact, I I do know of a few, but well, there's a question about certification of even even service animals.

SPEAKER_04: 32:49

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03: 32:49

And it's it's very murky in the United States. There's some states that are very strict about it, and some just are there's no, it's the Wild West. So it's it's kind of unfortunate because it does hinder what's really going on with a true service animal, in my opinion. But it confuses people too. It does confuse people. And it also brings out the worst in some people too, trying to get by with things. You mean trying to get their dog in somewhere where they shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 33:18

They don't have that training to be around the public. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03: 33:21

Right, yeah, yeah. So it's it's kind of difficult. I mean, I think that that emotional support animals have their place for sure to help with people that have fear of certain things, um, uh severe anxiety. Uh I mean, I think fear of flying is probably the biggest one that you know about, you know, just from past experiences. But um, but people are again stretching that a little bit. Um, whereas like a true service dog has gone through extensive amounts of training. Um and it's expensive. It's expensive. It's we're talking tens of thousands of dollars for some of these dogs. Um, one of my customers who has a true service dog for her son, uh, they had to get a grant. And as I recall, he was$30,000,$40,000. You know, but he was raised from birth. I mean, he was a from a from a breeding facility that does that. That's exactly, yeah. So there's there's a a place for all of them. Right. But when you like I said, when the waters get kind of murky. And there's some raw laws uh with the ADA where you can't ask, right? Yes, there are. In fact, um, I kind of I went back and I looked that up because I wanted to make sure. But yeah, under the ADA, you cannot ask a person about their disability or demand to see any certification or proof other than asking about the animal's training. That's all you can really say. You can just ask him how he was trained.

SPEAKER_04: 34:38

Yeah, what he's trained for. What he's for. Okay. And then you kind of get what the dog's doing for him then. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 34:45

So um Do you provide that type of um training? No, I don't. Um I do have some some resources which I can either give to you an hour or later and some of the in the local area. Of course, there's all kinds of national organizations too. You do have to kind of sift through those just a little bit too, if you're just using Google for everything.

SPEAKER_04: 35:07

I got stuck somewhere, or I was I actually asked about service dogs, and I suddenly got all this junk coming to me. You know, please certify your dog. Yes. We'll send you a vest. And you know, and I was thinking, yeah, where the what where's the trainee? You know, they just want to send you a vest and charge you$95.

SPEAKER_03: 35:24

Yeah, and there are a lot of websites that will, you know, you pay the money, you get the certificate, and they it and a lot of places accept that. And what that's that's where I have to do it.

SPEAKER_04: 35:34

Because of lack of information, or you think, or not wanting to rock the boat.

SPEAKER_03: 35:39

I think it's lack of of there being guidelines and there being laws for that. Right. You know. Yeah. So like you said, Wild West.

SPEAKER_04: 35:48

Yeah, it really is. Well, I will provide those um that uh referrals from that you give me onto the bottom of the podcast. Exactly. So they'll have some people can go there. And um so we kind of got into this the other night. Um we talked about your your business. Uh it is a pet st uh store. So pets come in. I see dogs and cats all the time when I come in. Yeah. And I brought my dog in a couple of times. Mine's not the it's the one that's not so public. He's not he would not pass his um obedience class because he doesn't like people. Yeah, it happens. So he can do everything else, but he just does not like people. But um so what do you have you seen some issues?

SPEAKER_03: 36:29

Yeah, uh I I w I will say in this location, which we've been in for I guess three years now, it's been better. Um And why do you think that is? I don't know. I don't know if people are just getting better at it or me that a bad way. But but Do you think COVID had something to do with that? You know, I have to wonder because we did move right after COVID, so maybe, but at my old location, I there were a few times that I had questions. Fights or dog fights? No dog fights. Um we had one we had one person come in who claimed to be a dog trainer whose dog actually peed in three different spots in my store.

SPEAKER_04: 37:09

And I'm like, Well, the basic training is uh body training.

SPEAKER_03: 37:13

We we kind of had some pretty you know three times. How'd he get three times out of the thing? He was marking. Yeah, he was which a trained dog would not do that. Yeah. Um I had another customer come in with a dog for a bath, and I had questions because he was very old and very uh for lack of a better way of saying it, broken down. And I'm like, how could he do service work? You know. Or at that time at that time it was probably more amazing. It wasn't anything that he did cause problems, though. You just were worried that Yeah, I just had concerns that maybe you do give discounts, right? We did. Oh, we do, we do, yeah. Because we do give a five dollar bath for like active military dogs, active um canine officers, and well, they they get free baths, our local, you know, like the police. Right. Um, but military dogs and service animals get a five-dollar wash instead of their regular$15. So I had suspicions. So it was coupon or yeah, that's what I was kind of afraid of. I mean, you can kind of tell. And especially after we have um three, three service dogs who come in. Uh true service dogs. Right. Uh we have the one that I told you about that they got the grant for their son, and he is a wonderful dog. When he's in here, he's off duty, so he can be petted. Right. Um, but if he were to come in with his his owner, he would be wearing his vest and he would be on the clock, so to speak. Um and then we have a dog who comes in who is a PTSD dog, and she got him through an organization because she was active military. She saw a lot of combat. She Well, the VA actually has a program for such dogs.

SPEAKER_04: 38:51

Wonderful. Yeah. I don't we haven't looked into it because we would have to get rid of our two. And yeah, and that's diff yeah, that's hard. And Kevin's very attached, the two weeks. Sure. I mean, you don't want to get rid of those. Those they're even though they're not emotionally supportive. They're not very supportive. Well, no, they're very supportive, but um, you know, they're not certified or any. I mean, not trained or anything. No, no, no. I think they do, he has terrible um anxiety. Sure. And so loud noises, that type of thing. And so the dog will just pop up on his lap and you know, you know, and the other one follows him around in his wheelchair.

SPEAKER_03: 39:23

So even to the bathroom. Right. Well, our third dog is a new dog, and this owner um lost her vision. Oh. Yeah. And she flew out to California, trained with this dog for several weeks, and then they flew back, and she lives with her in like an assisted living type facility. Um, the Schultz School, they used to be a my seventh grade when I was like, they converted it into specialized housing. And so the dog lives with her.

SPEAKER_04: 39:52

Oh wow. Yeah, and she comes in. And we owned the cafe, the the the blind school was just down. They would come for lunch. Yes. It was a practice session where they would come in and practice order and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03: 40:05

I even got braille uh menus for it. That's awesome. So there was quite a few of them. It's very neat to see. I mean, she comes in and her the dog comes in in her vest and she's got the handle on it, but she can they're okay if if we pet her.

unknown: 40:19

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03: 40:20

Just kind of just hard to resist sometimes, especially in their adorable.

SPEAKER_04: 40:24

Yeah. You definitely don't want to cross that line.

SPEAKER_03: 40:27

No, for sure. It confuses the dog. It does. It does for sure. And and like in the case of the first dog, you know, when he's wearing his vest, it'll say, do not pet. And you know, so most people are pretty But I've I've seen people Yeah, I've seen, yeah, especially children.

SPEAKER_04: 40:40

And then parents are like justifying why they let the child touch the dog. Yeah. Right. Which is But it'd be a perfect opportunity for a learning. Right. Right. You know, a learning thing for your child too. That's what Kevin has. Uh uh, the chair is very attractive to all children.

SPEAKER_03: 40:54

Oh, I guess.

SPEAKER_04: 40:55

And so he always made makes sure he does a learning session, you know, like because the parents will like, don't, you know, stay away, stay away. Right. Well, it's fine, you know. Sure. Kevin doesn't want he's not contagious. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 41:06

He doesn't want people to be afraid.

SPEAKER_04: 41:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 41:08

He doesn't want kids to be afraid, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 41:09

For sure. And so he'll say, Come on, Alfred, do you want to work the you know the the lovers and you know and stuff like that? So yeah. Yeah. That's what it should be. Because kids don't know. I mean, they only learn by uh know by learning. They do.

SPEAKER_02: 41:22

They do.

SPEAKER_04: 41:22

You said you don't um do the service training, but you have a lot of background in in training. Um what type of uh dog is uh breed, size, etc., is good for a service dog, do you think?

SPEAKER_03: 41:34

Well, for a true service dog, you know, a lot of times you see Labradors and golden retreaters. And I think that's because they have a good personality and they're very easily trained. They are very food motivated, um, which always makes training a lot easier. Um I know one of the organizations that we know over in Illinois, she breeds specifically labs, British labs, as I recall. And she picks, you know, she's very, very strict with her bloodlines and really starts training these puppies from almost birth. Um there's like a military program that they kind of start out, it's with noises and sounds, so these puppies can start getting acclimated to things. And then they actually, you know, take applications for these pet or for these animals, I should say, not pets, and and people come in and do and train with them.

SPEAKER_04: 42:21

Yeah, I think I saw a documentary where um they um they actually choose uh follow a person from the beginning, the puppy, all the way up to when they graduate. It's on YouTube maybe or something.

SPEAKER_03: 42:34

Yeah, it's that's really neat. Yeah. But I think for like emotional support animals and even even some therapy dogs, I think emotional support could be anyone that that gives you typically smaller, wouldn't you think? I think so. Something they can get up on, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 42:46

Yeah, because they can what's a good small breed? Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 42:49

I mean, anymore. Um of course there's a lot of I call I say oodles of doodles out there. Oh yeah. Lots and lots of doodles. All different sizes, too. All different sizes. Yeah. I think the little Catalar King Charles spaniels are very sweet because all they want is to just be in your lap. Um I think a lot of poodles, you know, are great for that. It does kind of depend on how young you get the dog. And personality. And personality, yeah, for sure. Some just don't don't have it. They just don't have it. They're they're too busy with a dog. Good animals, but yeah, just not meant for that. Yeah. And I don't think that a shelter dog should be ruled out. Um, you the only problem I run into with shelter dogs, and this isn't a problem because it's not anything that they've done is what their background might be. You know, did they come from a um an abuse situation or a neglect situation? Early enough, maybe you didn't bypass all that. Yeah, for sure. Because they become very bonded with their owners.

SPEAKER_04: 43:43

Yeah, that was my final question. Should you start with a puppy? It sounds like we should, but for service animals, for sure. I think so. And then emotional animals, they kind of you know fall in the gaps. And therapy dogs, even better. I mean, yeah, you kind of find figure out what the personality of the dog is, and then you know whether he's good or something. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 44:02

Yeah, and I do know a lot of therapy dogs that were shelter animals to begin with. So I think that once they once they understand that they've they've found a safe place, then they really excel. Right. You know, and and really are thankful for their situation too.

SPEAKER_04: 44:16

Yeah. We have uh our bigger one, Sasha. She is a Pomeranian Chihuahua mix, and she was in a terrible situation and was rescued. That little dog is so grateful for any love that you give her, and for God's sakes, don't leave leave any food around because she's always starving, even though she's overweight. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 44:37

Right. But you know, that's stuff that they've carried, that's trauma that they've carried with them.

SPEAKER_04: 44:40

Well, she spent almost um three months in a crate that she would not get out of. So that's so trauma.

SPEAKER_02: 44:47

So sad, yeah. It's so sad what people do to animals. Oh, it's awful. I can't don't get me started. I know. That's a whole podcast. That's a whole death sentence for me. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 44:55

So well, thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Thank you for thinking of it. It's good talking to you again. Yeah. I've seen you, but I haven't talked in a while. I know, it has been a while. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate it. All right. Thank you. We'll talk to you later. Well, thank you, Stacy, for that interview. Uh, we learned a lot more about the consequences of having a service animal um or a emotional support or a therapy. It's those seem more obtainable than the service dog, but with not so many uh access for your dog to go with you. Guys, we want to talk about our drawing that we're having at the end of the season. What you'll need to do to put your entry in is go to our website. Uh, we have a spot there where it says send me um buy me a cup of coffee. It is a three dollar donation that goes towards our um equipment.

SPEAKER_01: 45:53

Basically, our deeds. We need to update some equipment, updates some subscriptions, etc.

SPEAKER_04: 46:01

So it kind of helps us out. We do appreciate any donations that you do. Go ahead and and buy us a cup of coffee. Your entry will be that purchase, and at the end of the season, we will be drawing from those purchases a name where and they will receive an original artwork from Deanna Ives. She's an artist in Maine, and uh there's no cost to you after the purchase of the cup of coffee. Good luck. Enter many, many times.

SPEAKER_01: 46:36

We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_04: 46:38

Bye now. We are always looking to improve the podcast. So if you want to hear a specific topic, have a different opinion, to add something to the conversation, drop us an email. Our contact information is listed on our website. It's www.whenlife gives you lemons.net. We have recently added a companion YouTube channel called Making the Lemonade. If you enjoy the podcast, continue your enjoyment by joining us on YouTube.