Kevin: 0:01

Welcome to our podcast. When Life Gives you Limits, I'm Kevin.

Palmi: 0:07

And I'm Palmy. We consider ourselves disability advocates and intend to spotlight some disability issues and things we find interesting that we frequently encounter when we're out and about. Also some history on disability that we find interesting some history on disability that we find interesting.

Kevin: 0:26

Hello folks, Welcome back to our podcast.

Palmi: 0:28

Hey, Kevin, Hi.

Kevin: 0:29

Kevin, that's Palmi.

Palmi: 0:31

Hey, what is our topic today?

Kevin: 0:36

We're going to talk about red light therapy.

Palmi: 0:44

Actually two things red light therapy and laser therapy. They're two different classifications in the same realm though.

Kevin: 0:48

Same realm, but different application Right.

Palmi: 0:53

So let's start with red light therapy, and I'll give you a little heads up of where we came up with this. I'm looking into this right now because I lost a bunch of weight and I'm looking to get rid of some extra skin, tighten my skin up in those some, some areas where I had extra. I had the additional fat. I have lots of skin now, and so I'd heard that the red light therapy does that kind of thing. So I looked into it and this is what I found, and we'll talk about that now and then we'll look into the laser therapy later on.

Kevin: 1:33

Okay, basically red light therapy and laser therapy are kind of the same idea, they just work differently. One red light therapy you can't do that at home.

Palmi: 1:56

I'm not sure whether it's effective, as it always claims to be. Well, red light therapy is effective. It depends on who and how you get the product. Some has to do with how effective the product is that you're buying.

Kevin: 2:13

Some of the red light devices are listed as they're too tied to FDA approval.

Palmi: 2:22

There's.

Kevin: 2:23

FDA approved, which means they tested thoroughly, and it does what it's claiming to do. And there's FDA certified, FDA cleared and it just basically means it's not going to do that much harm. It works as it says it's going to work. It does not going to do that much harm.

Palmi: 2:47

It does not say it will do what it says it's going to do. Basically, None of the red light therapy is FDA approved. That would be items like pacemakers, implants, that kind of stuff. All the red light therapy is FDA cleared, which implies that it's a moderate risk class two devices. The devices demonstrate safety and effectiveness for the specific use. In other words, you won't have harm if you use it properly.

Kevin: 3:27

Basically, you have to look at the applications of red light therapy. So let's talk about it Skin rejuvenation, acme treatment, hair regrowth, muscle recovery, pain management and weight management.

Palmi: 3:43

Pain management and weight management. So red light therapy or RLT, also known as photobiomodulation or low laser. Low level laser therapy is a non-invasive treatment that's used specific wavelengths of red and near infraredinfrared lights to simulate cellular activity and promote healing. Now, originally it was explored by NASA for healing wounds in space. It's now widely used in dermatology and sports recovery and wellness clinics. How it works is the red light penetrates the skin and is absorbed by the mitochondria, the cell's energy producers, enhancing the ATP energy production, and basically, it stimulates collagen. No, how do you say it?

Kevin: 4:44

Collagen.

Palmi: 4:45

Collagen stimulation and elasticity production, which improves the skin texture and elasticity, elasticity.

Kevin: 4:55

To see. Yeah, you just said it.

Palmi: 4:57

I know I can't say it that way.

Kevin: 4:59

Anti-inflammatory effects, reduces inflammation and supports tissue repair and regeneration.

Palmi: 5:10

It improves the circulization, which enhances blood flow, which aids in healing and regenerativeness. Now all that is proven. That is proven what red light therapy does, based on all the research that.

Kevin: 5:28

Based on what scientists and certifying agencies can approve it to do.

Palmi: 5:37

Right. So for skin regeneration, it reduces the wrinkles, fine lines and pigmentation. Acne treatment it reduces inflammation and oil production. Hair regrowth, it stimulates follicles, improves scalp health, muscle recovery. It speeds up post-workout recovery and reduces soreness. Pain management it helps with chronic pain, arthritis and neuropathy, and even in weight management. It may assist in fat reduction and body contouring.

Kevin: 6:15

Okay, I'm not sure all the claims are being made by light device manufacturers, like device manufacturers like, for example, just browse in Iowa and Walmart, or browse like all the devices on Amazon. I'm not sure all of them are aligned perfectly with the way we view it here in the US.

Palmi: 6:45

Well, that would have to do with whether they're actually giving you the proper wavelengths that do those things.

Kevin: 6:54

Basically all the pictures on the boxes look like. Well, basically those heat lamps to keep your fresh eyes warm when you order them in the diner.

Palmi: 7:08

Right, but they have to be within a certain wavelength to be restorative and red light therapy basically, at least to my understanding, goes about skin deep. Right, it goes very low.

Kevin: 7:24

That's the difference between red light therapy and laser therapy right and laser therapy will go a lot deeper right, and that's why it has to be fda approved, because it it goes deeper into the skin. Yeah, I'm not uh, seeing the laser therapy, which has to be administered by trained and licensed people.

Palmi: 7:49

I'm not sure about licensed, but trained, yes, I'm pretty sure it's licensed like the physical therapist they use, it have to be licensed physical therapist okay, we'll get more about that because I think we're going to have some interviews. We'll explain more about that because I think, we're going to have some interviews.

Kevin: 8:05

We'll explain more about that, Basically licensing is all going to depend on where you are. Some states will require it, some counties will require it and some cities will also require it.

Palmi: 8:22

And there's going to be a difference between what you can buy and bring home and what you can buy go to like a spa center or regenerative center or athletic center, and what they might have. They may have stronger wavelength devices than what you could purchase and bring home, right, right.

Kevin: 8:46

That statement leads me back to. I don't want to be the friend trying the warming lamp.

Palmi: 8:55

Okay, there are some risks. Let's go through the risk. Plasma risks um plasma dress some users report worsening of plasma due to heat exposure from led mass.

Kevin: 9:17

Now that'd be like sun exposure. Yeah, I'm not quite sure. Really bad sunburn. You use this. How bad does heat?

Palmi: 9:23

um, I was telling you that I, the one I purchased you can use with a battery pack so you're mobile and you can run around and do what you want to do, or you can do it through an outlet, and when I do it through the battery pack it's lesser the the wavelengths seem to be less strength, and then with I use it through the outlet and through the outlet at the end of the session of 30 minutes, the last 10 to 15 minutes, it is not painful but it has a discomfort. It feels like you're getting a little bit of a sunburn, but I don't have any lingering effects afterwards. I don't have a burn afterwards or anything like that. Um, I am seeing a difference. I do it for 30 minutes every day and this is the thing. You have to be consistent, um, if you're going to do it one time and you think you got a miracle cure, there is no miracle cure here. Um, you, it has to be consistent and um, you have to keep doing it for a significant amount of time. They said on the literature that I received, you know they're talking three to six weeks before you'll see results, because it takes a while for it to um start your collagen to start reproducing and stuff like that. So, but I do think I am getting some. I do feel like there is some difference already and I've done it for two weeks already so far. Okay.

Palmi: 10:54

So, and my unit was less than a hundred dollars. So you know we're not talking an arm and a leg, but my. I did not qualify for skin removal surgery One I had. I have issues with blood clots so I'd be high risk. And the other thing is my insurance would not pay for it because it is not life in doesn't hinder my life at all. It, because it is not life in um, doesn't hinder my life at all. Um, some people have blisters and infections and stuff like that where it would hinder their life if they left their skin, you know, on after weight loss. But mine does not do that, it's just ugly, okay.

Kevin: 11:41

Vanity.

Palmi: 11:42

Uh. The next uh potential risk is skin sensitivity. It's not recommended for individuals with photosensitivity. Uh uh, medic medications, like if your medication says, please don't take, stay out of the sun when you're taking medication. It's the same situation, uh. And then we talked about this already Home devices are less powerful than clinical ones and may take longer to show results.

Kevin: 12:07

Now I've noticed that some of the I guess, bigger and more powerful things, itself for home use, have light goggles you're supposed to wear to protect your eyes, goggles you're supposed to wear to protect your eyes?

Palmi: 12:26

I never. I think that has to do with if you're doing something around your face. That could be. I think it has to do with where you are.

Kevin: 12:34

They are bigger and you know, as opposed to like, your contraption is kind of like a belt Right.

Palmi: 12:45

For lack of a better description.

Kevin: 12:47

It's around your belly and you can use it for your thighs Right it's way wider, but some are just like panels and some are like contoured for specific use, like contoured for specific use, like uh. Some manufacturers have uh devices basically sit on the head for yeah, I suppose hair growth right.

Palmi: 13:16

So these are popular devices. There's a face mask which targets wrinkles and acne. Um. There's a blanket or beds which is full body exposure for somatic benefits. There's hair brushes which promote so that's maybe what would be where you protect your eyes. If you're using a brush, it promotes thicker hair andp Health. And then there's multiple mode devices which combines red, blue lights for acne and anti-aging.

Kevin: 13:50

Fun fact If you're a fan of DC Comics Superman had one clear sun around Krypton.

Palmi: 13:59

Red, wasn't it? Yeah, many more so.

Kevin: 14:03

I guess we're going with the Superman lore and the Red. Sun is good, but he didn't have to wear goggles.

Palmi: 14:15

So they gave an example of local options in our area In Kansas City. Apparently they have beds that you can lay in they're called trifecta light bed systems and you just lay in there and supposedly it does her whole body all at once. I have no idea what amount of money we're talking. We did not give an example of that, but we're in Missouri so that would be our closest probably. But I did see we have quite a few spas in the area that are offering red light therapy right now too, reducing stomach areas and stuff like that. That's the big hot thing right now.

Kevin: 14:54

So if Superman's flying over Missouri. Make sure you let it a well-populated area, Because we don't have our lights out here in the boonies. If you need a quick charge-up, you probably need to hit a big city like Kansas City or St Louis, etc. That would be accurate.

Palmi: 15:23

So, like many of the novelties that emerge from the fringes of the wellness industry, red light therapy proposed benefits appear to be out of this world. Therapy proposed benefits appear to be out of this world, but in this case, technically speaking, they are all real, as long as you are talking real devices and not something that is just a fake device. Red light therapy emitting diodes, devices to help grow potatoes in space. A professor from Stanford University School of Medicine did that. That was one of their things when they went into space. That was one of their things when they went into space. That was one of their science experiments that they did. It was noted that the red light also helped heal the wounds on the hands of the astronauts who were attending to the plants, which was significant, since wound healing is usually slowed and impaired in space. With further research, this treatment was revealed to provide relief from several chronic disease symptoms, aid in the treatment and prevention of multiple muscular and skeletal injuries and promote overall brain health.

Kevin: 16:52

Again our last episode with med beds. That could be something that's reproduced on a smart bed.

Palmi: 17:04

Right.

Kevin: 17:05

I noticed, if you look at the products for sale, they have mats, basically you lie on.

Palmi: 17:16

They have mats, basically you lie on that could possibly be used in treating, for example, burns or whatever. So the simple explanation for the red light therapy wide range benefits is that it targets the body at the cellular level. Specifically, it stimulates the mitochondria to produce more energy in the form of ATP, which is upstream from just about every body function. Dermatologists have been using the lights longer than any other field. Cells use these energies to make collagen, and the collagen repairs tissue and promotes skin regeneration. It's really biologically activating.

Palmi: 18:05

A lot of athletes use it to improve post-exercise muscle recovery and stimulate nerve regeneration, reducing chronic back pain, and the list goes on and on. So it's been out there for a while. So there is arguments about against red light therapy and mainly it is the fact that the studies that are out there are very small. They don't have a lot of people involved in the studies, but according to the information we found, within the next three years they're looking at research that will involve the neogenitive diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease, looking to see if red light therapy will help with treatment for depression in this area and reduce chronic pain. So we recommend sticking to the science-based, expert approved uses for this right now. The big bang big bang for your buck would be skin cognitive improvement, inflammation and hair growth. These are the four big things that we have the most data on right now.

Kevin: 19:27

Yeah, I once again let me remind you that neither one of us are physicians, and we're just looking at the internet.

Kevin: 19:37

We're looking at stuff printed basically from studies and, uh, basically the you mentioned, bang for your buck. Uh, if you have concerns about will this heal? Would I need healed, I suggest talking to your physician before you launch or buy any of this stuff, because some of it can be kind of expensive and I think your physician will have a better idea of what it actually will, you know, suit your purposes. As far as power, here's the problem.

Palmi: 20:24

I don't think physicians at this point are much into holistic treatments. They typically don't give you their opinion on holistic products. So I would go to someone that maybe does the laser therapy and then ask them about the red light therapy, because they would have no more knowledge on it than probably your physician. I'd make sure it doesn't hurt you for what you're doing but honestly, when you ask a physician about supplements or stuff like that, they've been so far out of the medical field or schooling at this point. A lot of them won't even recommend supplements or any holistic things things.

Kevin: 21:11

A lot of physicians will not even endorse or think about certain fat therapies. Is what they're going to turn?

Palmi: 21:24

them.

Kevin: 21:24

But it's not fat, it's homolytic, it falls in the field of holistic, unless you specialize in holistic medicine. It's going to be one of those things like your GP is going to say well, I don't know a lot about it. I don't know a lot about it, but they're going to have some good experience of what not to do with it.

Palmi: 21:50

Not always. Honestly, right now I think I wouldn't go. I, I personally wouldn't go to my, my doctor, about something like that. I would go to someone who I, maybe a physical therapist or someone like that, who has more of an idea of that, or maybe you're, um, I don't know someone different than that. But doctors don't like to give them, but definitely not the Walmart salesman. No, not the person you're trying to buy it from either.

Kevin: 22:21

I mean, they're obviously going to be wanting to sell you Trying to sell the thing that's going to make them the most money?

Palmi: 22:42

money. So there was a they did a article about this in GQ and there was some good advice that GQ said on here. It said in terms of how long and how often to use the red light therapy. Experts told GQ that it depends on the specific device, specifically the wavelengths in erratic of the light and desired outcome, and encourages users to follow each product's directions. I tend to tell people to aim for three to five times a week, but it really depends, says Dr Palvin. The most important factor, it it seems, is consistent use over time. It sounds pretty basic but people just don't do it. You can have the latest and greatest, but if you're not going to be able to put this mask on three times a week for 10 minutes, then forget it, don't even buy it, and that was quoted under wwwgqcom. So that's true If you're not going to consistently use it. Like I said, it's not a miracle cure. It's not going to happen in one or two sessions.

Kevin: 23:42

The article also went on to say that light therapy and laser therapy both laundered the umbrella of photo.

Palmi: 23:54

Bio Bi biomodulation.

Kevin: 23:57

So what we said before is kind of accurate.

Palmi: 24:01

They both are like in the same family, but they differ on what they're.

Kevin: 24:12

Their specific uses are different.

Palmi: 24:13

Right, so let's go into key differences between the red light therapy and the laser therapy now. So laser therapy is high-intensive light. Red light therapy is LED-based, meaning less, so the light source is lasers for the laser therapy and the light source for red light therapy is light emitting diodes.

Kevin: 24:44

D-I-O-Ds.

Palmi: 24:44

What is it?

Kevin: 24:45

L-E-Ds.

Palmi: 24:47

Right, but that stands for light emitting diodes.

Kevin: 24:50

Yes, that's what Okay.

Palmi: 24:53

The beam type is Okay, you want to go with that one.

Kevin: 24:59

Coherent focus, beam for precision.

Palmi: 25:03

And for red light therapy it's non-coherent. Broad spectrum light Penetrating depth for the laser therapy is deeper tissue penetration several centimeters and for the red light therapy.

Kevin: 25:23

Shallow to moderate surface level to a few millimeters.

Palmi: 25:28

Okay, power output is higher power, often used in clinical settings and for the red light therapy, lower power, safe for home use. Applications for the laser therapy is chronic pain, information and deep tissue healing, and for the red light therapy it's skincare, general wellness, mild pain relief. For safety it requires training. So there you go. You said that Risk of eye and skin damage if misuse, and for the red light therapy it's generally safe and minimal risk. And then cost and accessibility. For the laser therapy it's more expensive, typically administered by professionals, and the red light therapy is affordable, widely available for home use.

Kevin: 26:23

And the red light therapy is affordable, widely available for home use, and by affordable that's a broad spectrum of prices, right? Some of the higher powered homeware office panels that you mount are pretty pricey.

Palmi: 26:39

Yeah, it depends on your opinion. When I'm considering it, I was looking at a $10,000 skin removal, so under $100 was reasonable, you know. So which one should you choose? So if you go with red light therapy, you should go with red light therapy if you're looking for skin regeneration, mild pain relief and a safe, easy to use option at home, which is what I was looking for For options for laser therapy if you need treatment for deeper muscular issues, more targeted clinical potential results and professional guidance for chronic conditions, both therapies are backed by research, but laser therapy tends to be more powerful and precise, while red light therapy is more accessible and user-friendly. So red light therapy we said this before is not FDA approved, same as most supplements, but many are FDA cleared, which is an important distinguishing fact.

Kevin: 28:02

Yes, it does. Fda approved is only reserved for a higher class risk, ie class three devices like peace thinkers and new plots. Fda cleared applies to moderate class 2 devices like red light therapy units. The devices must demonstrate that they're safe to use and they are effective for what their specific uses are.

Palmi: 28:36

So here's and I should have done some more research when I was looking for devices. Here's what I should have been looking for. It says most red light devices fall under the class two, meaning that they pose low to moderate risk and go through the 510K clearance process. This ensures that they are significantly evaluated to legally market devices and meet safety standards. So when I looked on the unit that I have nowhere on there does it say it is a 510 clearance process, that it has gone through a 510K clearance process.

Kevin: 29:17

In a very unscientific study I did on Amazon, I just pulled up 10 devices randomly, not really looking at what they're designed to do or what their price range was, but absolutely zero said anything about being FDA cleared or FDA approved.

Palmi: 29:46

Right.

Kevin: 29:48

Just a wire yeah.

Palmi: 29:51

They didn't say clearance on them.

Kevin: 29:53

They didn't say anything about FDA clearance.

Palmi: 29:56

What FDA clearance means for you is the device emits light at the therapeutic wavelengths, typically 600 to 1,070 NMs. It's more evaluated for safety and effectiveness for the specific claim pain and relief and anti-aging. It's manufactured under FDA-regulated standards. And what to look out for is non-cleared devices may not deliver this correct wavelength or intensity, making them ineffective or even unsafe. Marketing hype Some brands misuse the word the term FDA approved when they mean cleared. Always check the device is a 510K status. Again, that's where I didn't check. If you're shopping for a device, I would keep that in mind.

Kevin: 30:51

Yeah, under my very non-scientific survey on Amazon, let me repeat this absolutely not zero percent. The devices mentioned fda approval at all.

Palmi: 31:11

They won't say approval, let's say okay, I see what you're saying they didn't mention, so we're hoping to have a physical therapist come in and talk to us on an interview about laser therapy. He offers it in his office and we're hoping to be able to talk to him about a little more clarity on the laser therapy portion of this.

Kevin: 31:34

Yes, I also noticed that some of the claims on light therapy devices seem to be a little bit more unrealistic, but I have no control or idea where Amazon is getting these products from. I just know that you know these are the things you should look for If you want to actually get them to do it. You think they're going to do for you, right. And just because they're going to say they like your chakras or whatever. It's not a thing the FDA is worried about.

Palmi: 32:21

Nobody's done any studies on that that's not what they claim, but I get what you're saying.

Kevin: 32:27

I just tried to pick up a pretty harmless idea and run with it here. I wasn't suggesting anybody set the aligned ear chakras. I think that's more of a you thing. You have to do that or work with your spiritual advisor or your shaman or whatever.

Palmi: 32:52

I think you're going off on a tangent here, babe. No I just don't know enough about chakras to yeah, it claims that it will improve and red light therapy is a proven therapy. It's just you have to make sure you get the right product. Is what you're saying? I?

Kevin: 33:11

think so yeah.

Palmi: 33:14

And from reading our research, chances are that you'll get better results, maybe from the higher and this is not guaranteed either but from the spas, or that they might have higher powerful red light therapy lights than you can buy to bring home and use at home.

Kevin: 33:38

I think you would definitely be better off heeding Pommy's advice to go to a place with the red light treatments and ask the people that use it.

Palmi: 33:53

But they're a lot more expensive. Like, I was looking at treatments around this area and one treatment and they told me I would have to have 16 treatments for to see results and one treatment was 99. Wow, so there you're talking almost as much as a um a surgery.

Kevin: 34:13

So yeah, I'm, uh, kind of on the fence about red light therapy. I didn't understand how to only do certain things. I didn't see anything that would benefit me. Perhaps that's why I didn't really get off the fence, so to speak.

Palmi: 34:39

Well, I think, when more research is done. They said they're looking at it as far as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and neurological disorders, so maybe they'll find something in the future that would help you.

Kevin: 34:51

I'm pretty sure, if they're going to talk about getting into nursing their centers, perhaps even your brain it's going to have to be laser therapy, because red light therapy it doesn't penetrate the body that far.

Palmi: 35:10

Yeah, that's true. Well, you never know. A lot of times a lot of your symptoms can be caused by depression, and red light therapy does help with depression. So that's one of the things that did say it helped with this. But again, you got to get the right device.

Kevin: 35:28

Okay, folks, that about does it for this podcast. Until next time. We don't have any major housekeeping to go over. Remember to rate us on your podcast app if you use one, or Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever. Theoretically, we got over all those library podcasts.

Palmi: 36:03

I think we need to shout out and thank one of our sponsors that we had a donation for money. Oh, Donna.

Kevin: 36:12

Goodson, yeah for sure.

Palmi: 36:14

Yeah, Thank you Donna.

Kevin: 36:16

Yeah, for sure. Thank you, Donna. You're now internet famous. Okay, realistically, there's a story behind this. Donna is my physical therapist and she's I mean, I've been using her for this stupid hand therapy, for this hand I'm trying to get to work Through what? Through surgery so far, and like, yeah, we just go in there and we talk about like current events and stuff. So yeah, we didn't really talk about red light therapy, but then again, she doesn't do red light therapy, she works on hands, just hands.

Palmi: 37:10

She started listening to the podcast and was entertained.

Kevin: 37:16

I think she was more entertained by we were trying to bite off these words and see what they are Our pronunciation yeah, there you go.

Palmi: 37:29

We shouldn't do these. At the end of the day, we're exhausted.

Kevin: 37:33

No, we should get our nephew in here to pronounce words. Yeah, that's one. Yeah, right there, he said it.

Palmi: 37:42

We've had a long weekend. Our nephew Nash was here with us and we've had a two-and-a-half-year-old run around. We've heard more Baby Shark than we've ever cared to.

Kevin: 37:56

And yeah, baby Shark does use any sort of light therapy. But interesting, fun fact if you were to go diving, like with the diving submersibles they have, where you go down into darkness, red light is the first light that goes away. The red spectrum light oh, really yeah. Light is the first light that goes away. The red spectrum oh really Light, yeah. So things that were red turned into a different color, oh, I didn't know that. Because there is no red light that penetrates water. Hmm.

Palmi: 38:34

There you go. All right, let's say goodbye yeah bye Till next time, folks.

Kevin: 38:43

Bye Till next episode. Take those lemons and make your own lemon date.